Bun. Sir, said I, Wickliffe saith, that he which leaveth off preaching and hearing of the Word of God for fear of excommunication of men, he is already excommunicated of God, and shall in the day of judgment be counted a traitor to Christ. {214}
Cobb. Ay, saith he, they that do not hear shall be so counted indeed; do you, therefore, hear?
Bun. But, Sir, said I, he saith, he that shall leave off either preaching or hearing, etc. That is, if he hath received a gift for edification, it is his sin, if he doth not lay it out in a way of exhortation and counsel, according to the proportion of his gift; as well as to spend his time altogether in hearing others preach.
Cobb. But, said he, how shall we know that you have received a gift?
Bun. Said I, Let any man hear and search, and prove the doctrine by the Bible.
Cobb. But will you be willing, said he, that two indifferent persons shall determine the case; and will you stand by their judgment?
Bun. I said, Are they infallible?
Cobb. He said, No.
Bun. Then, said I, it is possible my judgment may be as good as theirs. But yet I will pass by either, and in this matter be judged by the Scriptures; I am sure that is infallible, and cannot err.
Cobb. But, said he, who shall be judge between you, for you take the Scriptures one way, and they another?
Bun. I said the Scripture should: and that by comparing one Scripture with another; for that will open itself, if it be rightly compared. As for instance, if under the different apprehensions of the word Mediator, you would know the truth of it, the Scriptures open it, and tell us that he that is a mediator must take up the business between two, and a mediator is not a mediator of one,—but God is one, and there is one Mediator between God and men, even the man Christ Jesus. Gal. iii. 20; 1 Tim. ii. 5. So likewise the Scripture calleth Christ a complete, or perfect, or able high priest. That is opened in that He is called man, and also God. His blood also is discovered to be effectually efficacious by the same things. So the Scripture, as touching the matter of meeting together, etc., doth likewise sufficiently open itself and discover its meaning.
Cobb. But are you willing, said he, to stand to the judgment of the church?
Bun. Yes, Sir, said I, to the approbation of the church of God; (the church’s judgment is best expressed in Scripture). We had much other discourse which I cannot well remember, about the laws of the nation, and submission to governments; to which I did tell him, that I did look upon myself as bound in conscience to walk according to all righteous laws, and that, whether there was a king or no; and if I did any thing that was contrary, I did hold it my duty to bear patiently the penalty of the law, that was provided against such offenders; with many more words to the like effect. And said, moreover, that to cut off all occasions of suspicion from any, as touching the harmlessness of my doctrine in private, I would willingly take the pains to give any one the notes of all my sermons; for I do sincerely desire to live quietly in my country, and to submit to the present authority.
Cobb. Well, neighbour Bunyan, said he, but indeed I would wish you seriously to consider of these things, between this and the quarter-sessions, and to submit yourself. You may do much good if you continue still in the land; but alas, what benefit will it be to your friends, or what good can you do to them, if you should be sent away beyond the seas into Spain, or Constantinople, or some other remote part of the world? Pray be ruled.
Jailor. Indeed, Sir, I hope he will be ruled.
Bun. I shall desire, said I, in all honesty to behave myself in the nation, whilst I am in it. And if I must be so dealt withal, as you say, I hope God will help me to bear what they shall lay upon me. I know no evil that I have done in this matter, to be so used. I speak as in the presence of God.
Cobb. You know, saith he, that the Scripture saith, the powers that be, are ordained of God.
Bun. I said, Yes, and that I was to submit to the King as supreme, and also to the governors, as to them who are sent by Him.
Cobb. Well then, said he, the King then commands you, that you should not have any private meetings; because it is against his law, and he is ordained of God, therefore you should not have any.
Bun. I told him that Paul did own the powers that were in his day, to be of God; and yet he was often in prison under them for all that. And also, though Jesus Christ told Pilate, that He had no power against him, but of God, yet He died under the same Pilate; and yet, said I, I hope you will not say that either Paul, or Christ, were such as did deny magistracy, and so sinned against God in slighting the ordinance. Sir, said I, the law hath provided two ways of obeying: the one to do that which I, in my conscience, do believe that I am bound to do, actively; and where I cannot obey actively, there I am willing to lie down, and to suffer what they shall do unto me. At this he sat still, and said no more; which when he had done, I did thank him for his civil and meek discoursing with me; and so we parted.
O! that we might meet in heaven!
Farewell. J. B.
Here followeth a discourse between my Wife and the Judges, with others, touching my Deliverance at the Assizes following; the which I took from her own Mouth.
AFTER that I had received this sentence of banishing, or hanging, from them, and after the former admonition, touching the determination of the justices if I did not recant; just when the time drew nigh, in which I should have abjured, or have done worse (as Mr Cobb told me), came the time in which the King was to be crowned. {219} Now, at the coronation of kings, there is usually a releasement of divers prisoners, by virtue of his coronation; in which privilege also I should have had my share; but that they took me for a convicted person, and therefore, unless I sued out a pardon (as they called it), I could have no benefit thereby, notwithstanding, yet, forasmuch as the coronation proclamation did give liberty, from the day the King was crowned, to that day twelvemonth, to sue them out; therefore, though they would not let me out of prison, as they let out thousands, yet they could not meddle with me, as touching the execution of their sentence; because of the liberty offered for the suing out of pardons. Whereupon I continued in prison till the next assizes, which are called Midsummer assizes, being then kept in August, 1661.
Now, at that assizes, because I would not leave any possible means unattempted that might be lawful, I did, by my wife, present a petition to the judges three times, that I might be heard, and that they would impartially take my case into consideration.